Since minority owned institutes won't come under mandal II, the talent will now start shifting to these institutes. Not to mention about money. So Christain and Muslim education institutes that are already cash rich will further fatten their bank accounts. The "Hindu" institutes over the period of time will cave in.
Not sure if UPA proposes the same logic when bringing in reservations in Private sector. So in that case companies like Wipro,TATA and Wockhardt that have muslim/parsi owners would be saved i believe! And Infosys, Bajaj, Reliance will bear the brunt.
And what about foreign/NRI owned companies like CTS, Kanbay etc? Will they too be subjected to reservations?
Also i do not understand the logic of giving reservations at every step. So we have reservations for XIIth, then again reservation for Engineering/IIT/Medical then again reservation for jobs.
Why make the poor OBC guy go through all the trouble. Why not directly give him job at the age of 21 , which is anyway assured? Why the formality of making him go through all these steps.
One reason why the secular cartels can operate with success is the complete lack of a deterrent. Just imagine - where does Arjun Singh or a VP Singh and his family turn to when they need solace? Will a church or a mosque provide them that solace?
Unfortunately, there is no Hindu body that can say something siginificant in this matter. Undeniably, Arjun Singh is working towards destroying Hindu religion, but the Hindu religion does not have any leverage whatsoever that it can use to deter an Arjun Singh (or a Lalu who gleefully declares that Hindus died of their own will in Godhra).
The truth is Hindu religion has not kept pace with modern times. It might have been a good religion at some time, but sadly, it is not doing its core job of supporting the society in a meaningful way.
I cannot think of a Muslim or a Christain working so openly against his own religion. Do you guys agree or do you think Hindus do have some collective clout even today?
The main reason why Hinduism has so many "rebels" in itself, is the inherent freedom that it offers. Even in Gita, after all the philosophy, Krishna says "Yada Ichathi Tada Kuru" .. Do as you wish, NOT do as I say ...
The second reason is that the way Hinduism evolved, did not consider the possibility of hatred and fire power in the name of religion, just as many later formed organised religions have. In fact there was no "believer" "non-believer" distinction in the first place - and hence the near infinite tolerance
These two aspects, in an ideal world, is a positive thing. But in a world full of people with selfish motives, and ideologies whose sole motive is to destroy anyone who differs with them, they become a weakness
Drisyadrisya, so you agree with me, in principle. You write and I quote "These two aspects, in an ideal world, is a positive thing. But in a world full of people with selfish motives, and ideologies whose sole motive is to destroy anyone who differs with them, they become a weakness"
I submit to you that selfishness is the most common quality you will get anywhere. British came to India with selfish motive. Shak, Kushaan, and Hoon tribes did the same thing earlier. And I guess Hindus coereced buddhists in a similar way.. (how else would you get mutilated buddha statues in museums?).
Human beings will be selfish and they will continue to organize with selfish motives. Hinduism represented that organisation some time back. Today, organising as Hindus isn't paying any returns, any dividends, simply because Hindu leaders have got this funny idea that they have to be nice and that their religion is something sublime. Come off it, my friend, else both you and me will be slaughtered in tomorrow's pogrom.
"I submit to you that selfishness is the most common quality you will get anywhere. British came to India with selfish motive."
-- maybe. though a better term for that kind of thing is "greed".
however, this is not a quality worth worshipping or emulating, simply because it is found in plenty in many humans.
the whole purpose of religion is to move one from "base" qualities such as "greed, lust, hatred", to higher qualities such as "giving, caring, sharing"
the purpose of religion is to foster the evolution of the human spirit from animalitude to divinitude.
and also, hindu religion does not tell us not to protect ourselves from bad guys. Gita is the best example and it is no stranger to any Hindu.
but that doesnt mean I should go out in the street with firearms tomorrow.
sigh, i wish you could see that the organizing mentioned in the Gita was for the greater good of society, and not for individual self-aggrandizement. it is based on the principle that different people have different tendencies and skills, and the division into groups was for the sole purpose of SERVING the whole.
as averageindian said a month back at another post, dont bad- mouth a system simply because we now live in different times..(i dont recall his exact words...). averageindian, are you reading this ?
Enough of this starry eyed idealism. Do you want to say that only VP Singh, Arjun Singh, and all those who follow Sonia are the only selfish people in India? Do you wish to say Advani and Vajpayee are not selfish? Or for that matter Shankaracharya or some other deemed guru?
Human organizations have been studied well enough for us to know systems that maximize 'greater good' or whatever when each member of the organization believes in a selfish way.
In public fora, we can only discuss things that everyone understands clearly. Idelistic rantings, self-realisation, sharing, caring and all that balderdash isn't going to stop the aggressive poaching of Hindus. Open your eyes before it is too late.
"Enough of this starry eyed idealism. Do you want to say that only VP Singh, Arjun Singh, and all those who follow Sonia are the only selfish people in India? Do you wish to say Advani and Vajpayee are not selfish?Or for that matter Shankaracharya or some other deemed guru?"
--- did I say that ? why are you putting words in my mouth ?
"In public fora, we can only discuss things that everyone understands clearly."
-- exactly what is it my simple words, that you dont understand ? I will try to be simpler and clearer.
"Idelistic rantings, self-realisation, sharing, caring and all that balderdash isn't going to stop the aggressive poaching of Hindus."
--- huh, where did I offer caring/sharing as an antidote to hindu poaching ? i was explaining what hindu religion is about. sorry, it isn't about organizing for selfish motives. if individuals are selfish, that doesnt make the religion selfish.
"Open your eyes before it is too late."
-- my eyes wide open, sir. now what is your bidding, and how may I carry it out ?
who should I report to ? you, rajeev, or someone else ?
Rajeev, sundry opinions of all of us apart, you have hit the nail on its head when you suggested that caste-based reservations, essentially, represent a frontal attack on Hinduism. The very fact that minority institutions have been exempted proves your point. Now, can we discuss something about action. Here are my suggestions -
1. DO NOT join the debate on whether reservations are good or bad. Just say that if they are good and useful, minority institutes cannot be exempted!!
2. DO NOT criticise other Hindus based on their caste.
3. Keep demanding that either Arjun Singh or Sonia Gandhi (50% reservation) should make way for a HINDU OBC person if reservations are increased to 50%.
4. Demand that next president of India should not be a Muslim/Christain, or a Kerala/Bengal Brahmin. The next President should be a Hindu OBC if reservations are increased to 50%.
5. Spread the idea around. Make sure a Hindu does not criticise other Hindu on this matter.
6. Exhort brilliant kids to design their agitation shrewdly. "Do not sit on streets and allow government machinery to lathicharge you". (I was in tears when I saw bright medicos from Maharashtra lathicharged on streets, half the lathis coming from plain clothsmen).
wheels4ever, thoughts shape actions. The aggressors would like Hindus to fight amongst themselves, so that they can reap the 'harvest'. Just the very awareness of this plot will dissuade people from discussing wrong things.
As for your question about who is going to do...
I don't have an answer. I do note that BJP has failed to find a way out of this trouble. I also note that regretfully, other Hindu organisations haven't woken up yet. Frankly, I see a rather dim future if all that people like you can do is ask questions of me.... I guess you guys enjoy poking fun at a fellow Hindu... about the same thing Arjun Singh, VP Singh, Sonia, MF Hussain, and Deepa Mehta do. Enjoy.
I think the reason people are not receptive to your views, is that there appears to be a mix-up in your understanding of the roles of religious organizations and political organisations.
You are expecting Hindu religious organisations to turn political. And you think they ought to be political, and that Hindu religion has failed to serve Hindus.
Unfortunately, this is is a highly debatable issue. And possibly many, like me, see it as a flawed understanding of religion.
Instead of catering to the needs of our soul/spirit, you think our gurus and temples should become politically active. You raised this point earlier.
I dont think this is a good thing.
And also, in your posts, I am seeing that you are using the word "Hinduism" and "Hindu Religion" as a synonym for "Hindutva". It's possibly because you are already sold on the idea that religious organizations should protect you, hindus.
Not many takers for this concept. That could be why your ideas are getting these rebuttals.
I happened to read you article on rediff about reservation and you have blamed the economic growth rightly so, but what i feel u have missed the point is the nature of reforms and the delivery system, India has changed from the percieved Socialism to Globalisation (in some terms other side of Capitalism) which was necessary to install India as a democracy and unity in diversity which is a very important thing which compared to so much os ethnic clashes taking place around the world. The other factor to link to economic development is also International and local enviornments, it is easy to comment, criticise the actions of the previous governments or history for that fact, but have we not leant any thing from history. Another factor u have skipped is the question of rural-urban divide that needs to be bridge for ushering developments for that there needs to be sops and if u call that as reservation, so be it. But it is worth to look at the issue of reservations with bridging the Urban-rural divide rather than on the caste lines..to get to a prgmatic solution.
On a seperate note i kindly invite you to have a look at my blog.
16 comments:
Since minority owned institutes won't come under mandal II, the talent will now start shifting to these institutes. Not to mention about money. So Christain and Muslim education institutes that are already cash rich will further fatten their bank accounts. The "Hindu" institutes over the period of time will cave in.
Not sure if UPA proposes the same logic when bringing in reservations in Private sector. So in that case companies like Wipro,TATA and Wockhardt that have muslim/parsi owners would be saved i believe! And Infosys, Bajaj, Reliance will bear the brunt.
And what about foreign/NRI owned companies like CTS, Kanbay etc? Will they too be subjected to reservations?
Also i do not understand the logic of giving reservations at every step. So we have reservations for XIIth, then again reservation for Engineering/IIT/Medical then again reservation for jobs.
Why make the poor OBC guy go through all the trouble. Why not directly give him job at the age of 21 , which is anyway assured? Why the formality of making him go through all these steps.
I have a post on "Minority status for Brahmins" on my blog, for those interested
The Minnesota Temple Vandals are caught
http://kstp.com/kstpimages/hinducharges.pdf
http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S16214.html?cat=1
One reason why the secular cartels can operate with success is the complete lack of a deterrent. Just imagine - where does Arjun Singh or a VP Singh and his family turn to when they need solace? Will a church or a mosque provide them that solace?
Unfortunately, there is no Hindu body that can say something siginificant in this matter. Undeniably, Arjun Singh is working towards destroying Hindu religion, but the Hindu religion does not have any leverage whatsoever that it can use to deter an Arjun Singh (or a Lalu who gleefully declares that Hindus died of their own will in Godhra).
The truth is Hindu religion has not kept pace with modern times. It might have been a good religion at some time, but sadly, it is not doing its core job of supporting the society in a meaningful way.
I cannot think of a Muslim or a Christain working so openly against his own religion. Do you guys agree or do you think Hindus do have some collective clout even today?
(quote)The truth is Hindu religion has not kept pace with modern times.(unqote)
Oh yeah, iamfordhimmicracy ?
Woman priests overtake male counterparts in Maharshtra
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0297/0057.html
Hindu women spread the word
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1298208.stm
--------------------------
The main reason why Hinduism has so many "rebels" in itself, is the inherent freedom that it offers. Even in Gita, after all the philosophy, Krishna says "Yada Ichathi Tada Kuru" .. Do as you wish, NOT do as I say ...
The second reason is that the way Hinduism evolved, did not consider the possibility of hatred and fire power in the name of religion, just as many later formed organised religions have. In fact there was no "believer" "non-believer" distinction in the first place - and hence the near infinite tolerance
These two aspects, in an ideal world, is a positive thing. But in a world full of people with selfish motives, and ideologies whose sole motive is to destroy anyone who differs with them, they become a weakness
Drisyadrisya, so you agree with me, in principle. You write and I quote "These two aspects, in an ideal world, is a positive thing. But in a world full of people with selfish motives, and ideologies whose sole motive is to destroy anyone who differs with them, they become a weakness"
I submit to you that selfishness is the most common quality you will get anywhere. British came to India with selfish motive. Shak, Kushaan, and Hoon tribes did the same thing earlier. And I guess Hindus coereced buddhists in a similar way.. (how else would you get mutilated buddha statues in museums?).
Human beings will be selfish and they will continue to organize with selfish motives. Hinduism represented that organisation some time back. Today, organising as Hindus isn't paying any returns, any dividends, simply because Hindu leaders have got this funny idea that they have to be nice and that their religion is something sublime. Come off it, my friend, else both you and me will be slaughtered in tomorrow's pogrom.
"I submit to you that selfishness is the most common quality you will get anywhere. British came to India with selfish motive."
-- maybe. though a better term for
that kind of thing is "greed".
however, this is not a quality
worth worshipping or emulating,
simply because it is found in
plenty in many humans.
the whole purpose of religion
is to move one from "base"
qualities such as "greed, lust,
hatred", to higher qualities
such as "giving, caring,
sharing"
the purpose of religion is to
foster the evolution of the
human spirit from animalitude
to divinitude.
and also, hindu religion does
not tell us not to protect
ourselves from bad guys. Gita
is the best example and it is
no stranger to any Hindu.
but that doesnt mean I should
go out in the street with
firearms tomorrow.
there are many ways of fighting.
this blog is just one example.
_
"Human beings will be selfish and they will continue to organize with selfish motives. Hinduism represented that organisation some time back."
--- ImforD, who was your guru that
taught you this kind of
hinduism ? and which books ?
which time back ? who ?
which religion is this, that
you are talking of ? never
heard of it.
_
-
contd/-
sigh, i wish you could see that
the organizing mentioned in the
Gita was for the greater good of
society, and not for individual
self-aggrandizement. it is based
on the principle that different
people have different tendencies
and skills, and the division into
groups was for the sole purpose of
SERVING the whole.
as averageindian said a month
back at another post, dont bad-
mouth a system simply because we
now live in different times..(i
dont recall his exact words...).
averageindian, are you reading
this ?
_
Enough of this starry eyed idealism. Do you want to say that only VP Singh, Arjun Singh, and all those who follow Sonia are the only selfish people in India? Do you wish to say Advani and Vajpayee are not selfish? Or for that matter Shankaracharya or some other deemed guru?
Human organizations have been studied well enough for us to know systems that maximize 'greater good' or whatever when each member of the organization believes in a selfish way.
In public fora, we can only discuss things that everyone understands clearly. Idelistic rantings, self-realisation, sharing, caring and all that balderdash isn't going to stop the aggressive poaching of Hindus. Open your eyes before it is too late.
"Enough of this starry eyed idealism. Do you want to say that only VP Singh, Arjun Singh, and all those who follow Sonia are the only selfish people in India? Do you wish to say Advani and Vajpayee are not selfish?Or for that matter Shankaracharya or some other deemed guru?"
--- did I say that ? why are you
putting words in my mouth ?
"In public fora, we can only discuss things that everyone understands clearly."
-- exactly what is it my simple
words, that you dont understand
? I will try to be simpler and
clearer.
"Idelistic rantings, self-realisation, sharing, caring and all that balderdash isn't going to stop the aggressive poaching of Hindus."
--- huh, where did I offer
caring/sharing as
an antidote to hindu poaching ?
i was explaining what hindu
religion is about. sorry, it
isn't about organizing for
selfish motives. if individuals
are selfish, that doesnt make
the religion selfish.
"Open your eyes before it is too late."
-- my eyes wide open, sir. now
what is your bidding, and how
may I carry it out ?
who should I report to ?
you, rajeev, or someone else ?
_
Rajeev, sundry opinions of all of us apart, you have hit the nail on its head when you suggested that caste-based reservations, essentially, represent a frontal attack on Hinduism. The very fact that minority institutions have been exempted proves your point. Now, can we discuss something about action. Here are my suggestions -
1. DO NOT join the debate on whether reservations are good or bad. Just say that if they are good and useful, minority institutes cannot be exempted!!
2. DO NOT criticise other Hindus based on their caste.
3. Keep demanding that either Arjun Singh or Sonia Gandhi (50% reservation) should make way for a HINDU OBC person if reservations are increased to 50%.
4. Demand that next president of India should not be a Muslim/Christain, or a Kerala/Bengal Brahmin. The next President should be a Hindu OBC if reservations are increased to 50%.
5. Spread the idea around. Make sure a Hindu does not criticise other Hindu on this matter.
6. Exhort brilliant kids to design their agitation shrewdly. "Do not sit on streets and allow government machinery to lathicharge you". (I was in tears when I saw bright medicos from Maharashtra lathicharged on streets, half the lathis coming from plain clothsmen).
wheels4ever, thoughts shape actions. The aggressors would like Hindus to fight amongst themselves, so that they can reap the 'harvest'. Just the very awareness of this plot will dissuade people from discussing wrong things.
As for your question about who is going to do...
I don't have an answer. I do note that BJP has failed to find a way out of this trouble. I also note that regretfully, other Hindu organisations haven't woken up yet. Frankly, I see a rather dim future if all that people like you can do is ask questions of me.... I guess you guys enjoy poking fun at a fellow Hindu... about the same thing Arjun Singh, VP Singh, Sonia, MF Hussain, and Deepa Mehta do. Enjoy.
IamforD,
I think the reason people are not
receptive to your views, is that
there appears to be a mix-up in
your understanding of the roles
of religious organizations and
political organisations.
You are expecting Hindu religious
organisations to turn political.
And you think they ought to be
political, and that Hindu religion
has failed to serve Hindus.
Unfortunately, this is is a highly
debatable issue. And possibly
many, like me, see it as a flawed
understanding of religion.
Instead of catering to the needs
of our soul/spirit, you think our
gurus and temples should become
politically active. You raised this
point earlier.
I dont think this is a good thing.
And also, in your posts, I am
seeing that you are using the word
"Hinduism" and "Hindu Religion"
as a synonym for "Hindutva". It's
possibly because you are already
sold on the idea that religious
organizations should protect you,
hindus.
Not many takers for this concept.
That could be why your ideas are
getting these rebuttals.
No one is poking fun at a fellow
Hindu.
_
I happened to read you article on rediff about reservation and you have blamed the economic growth rightly so, but what i feel u have missed the point is the nature of reforms and the delivery system, India has changed from the percieved Socialism to Globalisation (in some terms other side of Capitalism) which was necessary to install India as a democracy and unity in diversity which is a very important thing which compared to so much os ethnic clashes taking place around the world.
The other factor to link to economic development is also International and local enviornments, it is easy to comment, criticise the actions of the previous governments or history for that fact, but have we not leant any thing from history.
Another factor u have skipped is the question of rural-urban divide that needs to be bridge for ushering developments for that there needs to be sops and if u call that as reservation, so be it. But it is worth to look at the issue of reservations with bridging the Urban-rural divide rather than on the caste lines..to get to a prgmatic solution.
On a seperate note i kindly invite you to have a look at my blog.
Sorry forgot to give my blog name it is
www.polltalk.blogspot.com
and the other one is
http://ashwinkk.livejournal.com/
Post a Comment